Friday, December 23
Beyond Civilization
Since my last post, I have read two more books by Daniel Quinn (can you tell that I'm out of school?), My Ishmael and Beyond Civilization. I've actually reached the bottom of that stack of books (with another to take its place, of course). My Ishmael, the sequel to Ishmael, was largely redundant, it seemed, except that it gave a happy ending for the plot line, and it also went into the actual purpose of school. Beyond Civilization attempted to give concrete answers as to where to go from the theory Quinn presents. It really ends up being a really good non-answer. Our civilization is based on the belief that there is only one right way to live, and this is it (it just doesn't work because we are all flawed and need to be improved somehow before it'll work perfectly, as it's designed to). His response or answer or non-answer is that there is no one right way for people to live. It is the very fact that everyone is living the same way now, as opposed to a diversity of ways, that makes what we are doing unsustainable, forcing ourselves into one big unnatural niche in the environment instead of the millions of niches available (and sustainable) in each person's particular location (local, not global). So he proposes one way that evolution has shown to be effective in the past (just 10,000 years ago, having been developed over the 3 millions years we've been on this earth), and that way is the tribe. It is a way that accepts people as they are, acceeding to their imperfections. The old tribes he is looking to as models were ethnic closed tribes, whose existence focused around cooperating to make a living through a diversity of ways (foraging, hunting, various levels of agriculture and shepherding). He proposes open tribes in which people work together and are interdependent on each other to make a living. This is not a commune, in which people simply live together. It is a paradigm shift from hierarchy to balance and equality. His vision challenged me in two ways. First, he dispelled the notion of seeking voluntary poverty, because people cannot be inspired by a vision of the future in which they are giving up something, as opposed to gaining something. What people would gain by embracing a tribal lifestyle is security for life. There is, of course, still a trade off of letting go of materialistic comforts to some degree, but that is not the focus; it's not the goal. The goal is acheiving security (quite selfishly, but still in a way that benefits the whole tribe). The second way he challenges me with this vision is that he does not move to resist or actively change the larger hierarchical systems but to still work within them, just in a radically different way. So he is calling me to market my skills for the benefit of the tribe. (my problem has always been "what skills?! and where could i possibly employ them?"). I can definitely accept his point of view on the first issue, but not completely on the second. I still feel that we have a responsibility to struggle against the institutions in place, if only to breed more resistance. Other than that, I really like his ideas, or his challenge to be inventive and generate ideas, rather. Although there is still always the challenge of finding tribe members.
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Interesting. How can Quinn (or you) state that "everyone is living the same way now" without including himself, then, as part of that stated problem? And therefore, if "there is no one right way for people to live" is it then not the height of arrogance to claim the authority to suggest that others are not living the "right way"?
ReplyDeleteIf "we accept people as they are", how can we claim that they shouldn't live the way their conscience dictates, "acceeding to their imperfection"?
Has not history evidenced the consistent failure of tribes? Such as the Romans, the Celts, the Normans, the Aztecs, the Hutus, Tutsis, et. al.?
There has been one tribe that has flourished, however, that has embraced diversity and equality and has sought the perfection of the individual and the proper stewardship of the earth. It's a cult(ure) that rejects the main component of tribalism that led to the failure of each, that being racial superiority.
That tribe? Why, the Catholic Church, me-lad. Despite yourself, you've come full circle. Beeeee the Catholic, Thomas. Place your fingers in the holes of his hands, your hand in his side. Put aside your disbelief and believe! For "Blessed are they... who believe"!!
Our tribe awaits your return. ;)
First, he does include himself in the indictment of everyone living the same way. I should have been more clear in what I meant by "living the same way." In a broad sense, everyone has to make a living the same way- ie take a wage job to support yourself and your family individually. And just because there is no one right way to live does not mean that there can't be a wrong way to live. He does not attempt to tell anyone that they are not living the right way, only offering the possibility of alternatives to people who can see for themselves that something needs to change, and soon.
ReplyDeleteAs far as accepting people as they are, I was referring to the fact that all of the institutions we have now- our judicial system, our government, or educational system, et cetera- are utopian because they would work perfectly if only people were perfect. But people aren't perfect, and there is no presumptions about being perfect in a tribe.
All of your examples of tribes were completely false. Those were all civilizations with hierarchies. In the case of the Hutus and Tutsis, who were tribes, they lived quite peacably before the dutch (from the civilized world) came and imposed an arbitrary hierarchy, turning the two tribes against each other when the real enemy was the dutch. So really, all those examples you gave are evidence of OUR impending demise as a civilization.
Catholicism is as much a part of civilization as everything else. Notice the nice little hierarchy we've got going, completely fabricated by men, not Jesus (not women, either). So you'll have to excuse me for declining your invitation to rejoin your so-called tribe. There is nothing about the Catholic church that is tribal. It may be that I am operating under a completely different definition of what a tribe is, but a tribe that claims to be universal has no business calling itself a tribe.
Besides, my post was just a short summary, mostly for my benefit to help me digest what I read. It's level of clarity was limited by that, so if you want to more fully understand what I am trying to explain, I suggest reading the book yourself.
I hate to debate with you (naw, not really... you know I really dig it ;) but I seem to recall that Jesus appointed Peter as the leader and gave him the authority (metaphorical "keys") to the shop, to determine what was what. I don't recall there being any recall petitions or impeachment proceedings of his administration. There were plenty of heated debates in Jerusalem about membership, but as I recall, it seems that they sorted out who was an authentic member (as recognized by the "key"master's reckoning) and who wasn't.
ReplyDeleteIs the gospel's telling of this/these events false? What other interpretation am I to make of what is written?
yep, you're right. that's how it went down, according to the bible. jesus gave the go ahead for peter (a highly fallible person, as was recorded) to begin the complete fabrication of the hierarchy we now have in place. i stand corrected.
ReplyDeleteI thought that this might be relevant to the biblical aspects of the discussion.
ReplyDeletehttp://anthropik.com/2005/10/betraying-the-son-of-man/
You speak of the ways Quinn challenges you, Tom. It is in these regards that I must go "Beyond Quinn". Getting people to "give things up" is certainly not the goal, but it is something that MUST, of necessity, happen along the way -- as you say. But this is not where I disagree with him; I disagree with him that changing minds is going to make any kind of a difference, which is an underlying theme in all his works. When civilization inevitably collapses (Quinn does not really acknowledge the inevitability, even with changed minds) people will not only lose their material comforts but also their lives. The ecology of the situation is quite clear; the human population is in overshoot, and overshoot leads to die-off. Changing people's minds does very little to influence ecology -- people working and living together still have to eat food and drink water. I talk about how agriculture and civilization are necessary to support this many people, getting into some ecological concepts like carrying capacity, here.
ReplyDeleteI wrote: "We (this generalized concept of humanity that I am invoking) no more control the fate of civilization than we control the weather or the processes of evolution. Although seeing ourselves as just another animal is complete anathema to our civilized psyches, it has now become an undeniable fact. We are thus subject to the same laws of ecology as every other species is, there is no "invisible hand" that guides us and forever ensures our success. Although we have grown so accustomed to the expectation of perpetual growth that we even have a field devoted to studying it (economics), it has become evident to all of those who keep their heads out of the sand that there are limits."
The second way he challenges you I must disagree with him even more, in that attempting to live within civilization is far from going "Beyond Civilization" but is more akin to "Perpetuating Civilization." We've had some rousing discussions on IshCon about "tribal businesses" versus "primitive tribes", and from my perspective the people on the "tribal business" side were much more complacent with the system. In the process of hashing that argument out over and over, it would seem that the people in the former camp also denied the collapse of civilization and often were subject to the myth of human exceptionalism. At the time, I was mostly playing a mediator role (the whole conversation was ridiculous; people FINALLY recognized that the two were not incompatible and that they didn't have to convert other people to their own view) but I've now come to the conclusion that trying to work a tribal business in the context of civilization is going to be really unsuccessful. Perhaps even fatal. The business paradigms of competition and ownership and hierarchy are too entrenched, an abstract value like money is completely unfulfilling as the bottom line, and ultimately these paradigms are only as successful as the larger context of civilization, on which these businesses would still be wholly dependent.
- Devin
I agree with you now. In my defense, these were reactions to, even more, only summaries of Quinn's writing, immediately after I finished reading them. At that point, I had no perspective or distance to disagree with anything he was saying. Now, it's a bit different.
ReplyDeleteHey -- I just wanted to let you know that I am writing these comments knowing full well that what you think on these things has likely changed. Unfortunately I do not have the ability to comment on what you are thinking NOW, as I am not a mind reader -- else I would certainly take that approach instead.
ReplyDeleteFrom this awareness, I hope I can reassure you that I am not going to judge you or your beliefs by looking at a brief snapshot of "Tom" as you moved through time. I don't wish to set it up as me disagreeing with you or pigeonholing you in the past. I was using your post as a stepping off point to share some of my own thoughts on these subjects. I do not know of a way to get around this sort of thing without introducing new context, which for whatever reason often feels a bit presumptuous.
I wish I had made that clearer before I made these comments. I know it would annoy me to get a comment critiquing something I'd written long ago as if it were something I'd written presently. It is for this reason that I make all of my livejournal entries private after a time. All in all, I am overwhelmingly glad for the impermanence of memory.
I hope you can read what I wrote today keeping in mind that I wrote it keeping in mind that what you wrote did not necessarily represent you any longer. If, that is, you can understand the previous sentence. :D
- Devin